Emulation Discussion

[Frogacuda]

One billion cool points for you, as Saturn piracy is a pet peeve of mine. I'm just trying not to flip out about it as much these days.Why would Saturn piracy bother you? DC pircay bothers me a lot more, because that really hurt the system and the developers, but 10 year old stuff... At that point these games have made their money, and allowing them to live again with a whole new audience is great, rather than letting them wither as the protected treasure of a privelaged few collectors.

[jp]

Frog, you really don't want to get into this argument with me. Like, really.

[Frogacuda]

I kinda do. I mean I'm not one-sided here. I understand that emulation hurts some retro compilations (though seeing how well those compilations sell these days, it clearly isn't too much of a problem).

But emulation is preservation. It's keeping our game history alive. You can buy any significant movie new at a reasonable price, but games fall into oblivion a few years after they're made. There are some games which literally would not exist any more if not for emulation saving them. It's seriously very important.

[jp]

Saturn game's aren't ceasing to exist at this moment. I can assure you. Maybe in another 10 years you MIGHT have a point... but for here and right now, no.

And people do still make a living off of Saturn games. Maybe not the original developers, but people who supported those original developers. Ask the likes of Yakumo or palet_th or rabitds what they think about pirating Saturn games. See if Hiroshi Iuchii is cool with burned copies of Radiant Silvergun. Who knows, maybe Treasure is hoping to eventually put that on XBLA... I doubt they'd want a bajillion burned copies floating around then.

If you want to emulate some ancient shit like the SG-1000 or get some Commadore 64 games runnin', fine, whatever, thats your business. But pirating Saturn/DC games is not cool to me. Because as a collector and as somebody that supports the sellers who make a living off this stuff... pirated copies/emulation of PC-Engine/Saturn games really really really REALLY annoys me. Like, a lot.

So... let us leave at this. Because you cannot and will not change my views on this.

[Frogacuda]

See if Hiroshi Iuchii is cool with burned copies of Radiant Silvergun.

No developer makes a game hoping it will languish in obscurity to only be enjoyed by a scant few lucky collectors. They want to A) make money (which they've already done, for the most part) and B) have people enjoy the fruits of their hard work. Emulation has helped people realize how great some of these games truly were, and given them a second life. Many, many developers have been thankful for the audience emulation and abandonware has given them.


Who knows, maybe Treasure is hoping to eventually put that on XBLA... I doubt they'd want a bajillion burned copies floating around then.
Totally valid point, and it's definitely a double edged sword, but it's important to remember that less than 1% of all games out there will ever be re-released.

Also, as I said, classic games sell very well now, despite the ease and accessiblity of emulation, so it's not entirely clear to what extent the damage of piracy is here. It may even be helping these games to become better known.


Because as a collector and as somebody that supports the sellers who make a living off this stuff... pirated copies/emulation of PC-Engine/Saturn games really really really REALLY annoys me. Like, a lot.Yeah, it does hurt collectors, no doubt. But the extent to which collectors deserve to control the art of others like a commodity isn't clear to me. I really believe works of art made for public consumption like games, movies, and books should be public. I wish libraries and re-releases kept everything alive, but they don't.

[jp]

When I was trying to sell my copy of Sapphire for the PC-Engine Duo I had to sell it for considerably less than I bought it.

Why?

Because the market had been flooded with bootleg copies.



No developer makes a game hoping it will languish in obscurity to only be enjoyed by a scant few lucky collectors.

No, developers make games hoping a bunch of people will give it a chance and play it. And when it doesn't sell worth shit and "becomes rare", I doubt it makes them too happy when a few years later people go "Oh shit, I missed that game, time to download! Woohoo!" That shit isn't putting dinner on their table. I would imagine the developer is thinking, "Where the fuck were you 5 years ago?"



Yeah, it does hurt collectors, no doubt. But the extent to which collectors deserve to control the art of others like a commodity isn't clear to me.


I wasn't talking about collectors. I was talking about Japanese sellers who make a living off that stuff.

[Frogacuda]

No, developers make games hoping a bunch of people will give it a chance and play it. And when it doesn't sell worth shit and "becomes rare", I doubt it makes them too happy when a few years later people go "Oh shit, I missed that game, time to download! Woohoo!" That shit isn't putting dinner on their table. I would imagine the developer is thinking, "Where the fuck were you 5 years ago?"There might be a bit of frustration involved, but I'm sure almost all of them would rather be recognized as ahead of their time than forgotten altogether.

Nick Drake died without having ever sold more than a few thousand records, but if he knew that his music would be rediscovered and heralded as brilliant 3 decades later, he might not have taken his life. Everyone wants to put food on the table, but that's rarely why artists create.


I wasn't talking about collectors. I was talking about Japanese sellers who make a living off that stuff.
Point still stands. Public art shouldn't be a commodity controlled by a select few. Doesn't mean piracy is really right, either, but it's not a perfect world, unfortunately.

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but admit that a lot of good comes from emulation as well. It's definitely not as black and white as you paint it.

[YankeeH8er]

When I bought my modded XBOX the woman asked me if I would like a Saturn emulator and I said no because I am not some scum bag that is going to steal games for a system I love. I have a friend that sent we a link to download DC games and I deleted it. I would rather buy the games. Would this talk have been okay on Setren?

[Frogacuda]

I would rather buy the games.
No one said you shouldn't

Would this talk have been okay on Setren?Why wouldn't it be? I think it's been an intelligent, pretty philosophical discussion, actually, devoid of name-calling or anger.

At least until your scumbag comment :p

[jp]

Well Frog, much like our past discussions on Cave/Psikyo, this isn't going to end. And I really don't feel like arguing it anymore. I don't like piracy. Mainly, I don't like piracy of Saturn games. I've personally bought 500+ Saturn games and probably spent close to that same amount of money (spent on said games) on Saturn hardware. As a Saturn collector, I view Saturn piracy a lot like Jorge views emulation and piracy period. I mean, the way I see it is, if you were alive when the console was around, if you didn't buy the developer's game/support said console so that more stuff could be made... I don't see why playing it all for free is an option years later. I watched the Saturn fail and I watched the DC fail because people wouldn't go out and buy the great games people were making on said consoles despite the fact that I bought and tried to convince others to buy the consoles and the games people like Treasure and Sega were making for them. The devs may not be making money off of said games now, but they sure as shit would've loved to have back when they were putting these great games out. In SOME cases, you WOULD have a point. Taromaru for instance. The pressing of 7500 was the absolute last thing Time Warner Interactive Japan ever did. Granted, I still wouldn't be cool with it being pirated, but you'd certainly have a much better case for it since its sells were irrelevent when it came out.

That is my PERSONAL heart-felt no logic reason for why I hate piracy of Saturn/DC games. You want a logical one, I've presented it. Support the people that keep these games in good condition, track them down, and sell 'em to people like you and me. Because in my opinion, maintaining the condition of and selling off original copies of "rare" games, is a profession I'm definitely down for supporting. Because hey, I'm sure whoever did the art and layout for the manuals would also like to be remembered. :p



When I bought my modded XBOX the woman asked me if I would like a Saturn emulator and I said no because I am not some scum bag that is going to steal games for a system I love. I have a friend that sent we a link to download DC games and I deleted it. I would rather buy the games. Would this talk have been okay on Setren?


I haves no rep to give. And I have no idea if this talk would be allowed on "Setren", never been there. :p

[Frogacuda]

I mean, the way I see it is, if you were alive when the console was around, if you didn't buy the developer's game/support said console so that more stuff could be made... I don't see why playing it all for free is an option years later.I was 14. What was I going to do? Put in OT down at the factory? It's not like I didn't want a Saturn or salivate over pics of Silvergun. But I was 14 and no one was buying that shit for me. They said "You already got a 32X. Play that."

It's totally important to support good games when they come out, you're 100% right. We both completely agree on that. 12 years later that's not the main issue, though.

I am totally against piracy that competes with commercial performance. I don't think anyone passed on Saturn because they thought "12 years from now I'll be able to play this on my PC for free." DC piracy, on the other hand, was totally fucked up, and I was 100% against it.


In SOME cases, you WOULD have a point. Taromaru for instance. The pressing of 7500 was the absolute last thing Time Warner Interactive Japan ever did.
I never said it's right in all cases. It's totally not. But there are MANY instances where I think a good case can be made. Like I said, 99% of games effectively disappear permanently from commercial relevance within a couple years after their release.


Support the people that keep these games in good condition, track them down, and sell 'em to people like you and me. Because in my opinion, maintaining the condition of and selling off original copies of "rare" games, is a profession I'm definitely down for supporting.

This is probably the point we most disagree on. I'm not sure why these getting to charge whatever they want for games they didn't make should really be important to me. I have no problem with them doing it, but they're just turning over some product to make a few bucks. It's nothing more noble than that. If they didn't exist, the exact same number of copies of that game would still be out there.

[jp]

I was 14. What was I going to do? Put in OT down at the factory? It's not like I didn't want a Saturn or salivate over pics of Silvergun. But I was 14 and no one was buying that shit for me. They said "You already got a 32X. Play that."


I hauled hay for a summer and made $100 a week doing it. I was... 13 or so.


DC piracy, on the other hand, was totally fucked up, and I was 100% against it.

I concur.


I never said it's right in all cases. It's totally not. But there are MANY instances where I think a good case can be made. Like I said, 99% of games effectively disappear permanently from commercial relevance within a couple years after their release.

Because there's no demand for them. If people showed that they wanted to play the games the companies would probably make more and make more money.



This is probably the point we most disagree on. I'm not sure why these getting to charge whatever they want for games they didn't make should really be important to me. I have no problem with them doing it, but they're just turning over some product to make a few bucks. It's nothing more noble than that. If they didn't exist, the exact same number of copies of that game would still be out there.

Yes, and finding a copy of Taromaru would be damn near impossible. Lets not even mention the likes of Crows: The Battle Action or Tryrush Deppy or Blast Wind or Hyper Duel.

[Frogacuda]

Because there's no demand for them. If people showed that they wanted to play the games the companies would probably make more and make more money.
I wish this were the case. Maybe in the future as games move more and more toward online distribution, companies will re-release old games without a second thought for the small amount of interest they may continue to generate.

[jp]

I wish this were the case. Maybe in the future as games move more and more toward online distribution, companies will re-release old games without a second thought for the small amount of interest they may continue to generate.

I meant during that time period. If a huge surge of demand had sprung up for say... Hyper Duel a little bit after its release, I'm sure Tecno Soft would've made more had they seen it as being profitable.

Hell, lets look at Border Down. :nod:

[Frogacuda]

I meant during that time period. If a huge surge of demand had sprung up for say... Hyper Duel a little bit after its release, I'm sure Tecno Soft would've made more had they seen it as being profitable.Eh, sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. It's a crapshoot. Xenogears and Final Fantasy Tactics sold more copies after their reprint over a year later than their initial print run. A lot of companies aren't that smart though, and they don't bother to re-release even when demand spikes.

[Raz]

Originally, I wrote out a long, wordy post, but I'm going to break it down to something simpler (maybe). So, in the words of a certain Italian plumber... "Here we go!"

Paying collectors and retailers for out-of-print games does not show any form of appreciation to the creators that they will ever recognize. They will not receive any of that money spent, they will not know that seller was holding it, and they will not come and find a collection listing on the internet and feel blessed because their game's there. It will not get them funding from companies so they can make games in the future. It will not put food on their table. It does not pay them respect in any way. If you did not buy the game when it was in a normal retail store, you missed your chance to make a difference in their life, period.

Thinking that buying collectibles really does matter is fine, but that's a matter of opinion, not a truth. There is no firm line linking the purchase of a collectible that's far past its forgotten release, to the people who were responsible for creating it.

Furthermore, emulation is incredibly important for many reasons, and Travis mentioned one when he referred to how some games wouldn't exist today without it. As rotting and natural deterioration begins to do away with boards, disks, and even CDs in time, these things once printed upon those media forms risk vanishing off the face of the earth forever -- but they can achieve immortality in digital, emulated form.

If someone wants to be remembered, something that can potentially be carried on to others well into the future is much more important than another form of it which will eventually become useless. Also, by merely collecting something and not playing it, one has already done them a disservice, and not many store-owning "collectors" play every game they sell. A lot of the buyers don't play what they buy. And that person who really does want to enjoy that title as it was meant to be enjoyed will never get their chance, unless they emulate it.

I agree that emulation is important, but I disagree that emulating "dead" consoles is cruel. It isn't. If you want to make an out-of-work developer, artist, writer, or whatever happy, go hunt them down and give them that $60 instead. And say, "hey, I really liked that game you worked on." Is that pretty much impossible? In most cases, yeah, it is.

But they won't know you care any other way.

I used to collect a lot. I don't anymore. I've sold my TG-16, among other things. That money goes toward buying brand new games now.

You know what's funny, though? As much as I support emulation, I don't have a single modded console. I even have a Japanese DC and a US DC, for crying out loud, when all you need is a boot disc to play imports on the latter. So it's not as if I'm burning things left and right, because I'm not. All my Saturn and DC games are originals. In fact, all the console games I own are, for the aforementioned reasons. When I want another game for one of those systems, will I buy an original copy? Yeah, probably.

But I'd never look down upon someone who burned the same thing today.

[oneironama]

I don't know if there's much else that can be said here...I'm not totally for or against emulation, it's a very complex issue. While I personally prefer the originals, that has to do more with personal preference rather than an act of selflessness- I just feel like the experience is cheapened a bit when it isn't had with "the real thing", although as an artist myself (lol) I also support the assertion that choosing an unofficial copy over the original for the sake of convenience or "frugality" can be a bit of a backslap. HOWEVER...

As has already been stated, it also doesn't help the creators if we buy the official copy of a game that was discontinued over 10 years ago from a 2nd hand dealer, since they're no longer seeing any form of return other than having their ideas shared. True, the sharing is key, but artists like to eat too amirite? Frog mentioned some positives to emulation that I honestly never considered, and it is good when things can be preserved. However, when it's a things time to pass, it's its time to pass, that's with anything. Sometimes we just have to let go, and while I'm not encouraging the forgetting of lost or obscure gems, I'm not too sure if emulation is THE best way to prevent this, if it even can.

Besides, there's much to be said about the power of word-of-mouth...if we speak of a thing (or type, in this instance =P), it can't truly die.