SHINJIROD!!!

[Hunter]

You ever start reading the WoT books?

[Celebrant]

I am neither Shinji nor JP, may I respond?

I stopped reading those damn things in Book 6 ... are you through the newest installment hunter? Are they still dragging like crazy and introducing all kinds of new plot elements and characters out of thin air? (Wtf was with that whole race from beyond the sea that just showed up?)

[jp]

Did I ever start reading them?


I read them awhile back. I'm just waiting on the new 'un.

[shinjirod]

i started. but my thesis prevented me from getting far, and then i decided to put them on hold until i finish deadly hallows.


but i was enjoying it sooooo much.

[Hunter]

Start again Damn You!!


And Celebrant, you're kidding right? The Seanchan were there since the second book.


I'll leave it at that, since I don't want spoilers. And jp, I put your name, because I figured you might be interested in an update as I am on shinjis progress, and I didn't want you to feel excluded by the title.

[shinjirod]

i will soon

[jp]

And jp, I put your name, because I figured you might be interested in an update as I am on shinjis progress, and I didn't want you to feel excluded by the title.

Ah, I see.

[Hunter]

I'm about 1/4th of the way through of my like 5th or 6th re-read of the Dragon Reborn. :)

[Celebrant]

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Ok so ... here's the earth.

They were there since the second book? But only sort of, right? I found it weird that this whole story arc was building in one direction, and then they showed up and it kind of threw everything off. It kind of seemed like it wasn't really going anywhere... but granted I've only read through book 6, and that was two years ago.

How does the series hold up through book 11 or whatever they're on now? Because I know Jordan himself has had to counter complaints that it's dragging by saying "he's just writing for himself now" and stuff like that, I don't think it's just me that got a little annoyed.

It's weird because I loved the first book, and thought the next couple were promising, but now (through book 6) it seems like he's flying blind? To me they read like he didn't have a roadmap or an outline for where he was taking the series. That's not necessarily bad, it just didn't compel me personally.

But if you recommend the 7th-11th books, I am willing to give them a shot.

Keep in mind I'm a huge fan of George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series (although book four wasn't great), so if you think I'm an inferior fantasy fan because of that I understand haha.

[Hunter]

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.

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Ok so ... here's the earth.

They were there since the second book? But only sort of, right? I found it weird that this whole story arc was building in one direction, and then they showed up and it kind of threw everything off. It kind of seemed like it wasn't really going anywhere... but granted I've only read through book 6, and that was two years ago.

How does the series hold up through book 11 or whatever they're on now? Because I know Jordan himself has had to counter complaints that it's dragging by saying "he's just writing for himself now" and stuff like that, I don't think it's just me that got a little annoyed.

It's weird because I loved the first book, and thought the next couple were promising, but now (through book 6) it seems like he's flying blind? To me they read like he didn't have a roadmap or an outline for where he was taking the series. That's not necessarily bad, it just didn't compel me personally.

But if you recommend the 7th-11th books, I am willing to give them a shot.

Keep in mind I'm a huge fan of George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series (although book four wasn't great), so if you think I'm an inferior fantasy fan because of that I understand haha.








No, the Seanchan actually played a HUGE part in book II. And they played minor roles in books 3,4, and 5. They really aren't new at all . . .


As for books 7-11. 7 is good, 8 is ok, 9 is ok, 10 sucks ass, 11 is good. The books will end at book 12, that's garuanteed, so the series is almost done.


As for A Song of Ice and Fire. I enjoy it very much as well. But so many elements feel like rip-offs of the wheel of time. And the graphic detail of sex scenes makes it feel very silly, like some romance novel. Also, his tendency to write millions of pages on characters he just kills off is very annoying. It feels like he's wasting my time, and I don't give a rats ass about side characters, because they are all gonna die anyways. You know what would surprise me right about now, a side character NOT dying. :|

[Celebrant]

I don't remember the role the Seanchan had in book two of WoT, remind me?

I guess if 7-9 of the series are ok and 10 sucks, but 11's good and it will end at 12, I'll save the rest of the series for a time when I have a drought of books. Right now I just finished Kings of New York by Michael Weinreb and Postcards from Europe by travel writer Rick Steves, both of which were relatively light and very enjoyable non-fiction reads. And Harry Potter 7 looms ever closer.

I'll agree with you on some of the Ice and Fire criticisms. The graphic sexual descriptions completely took me out of the illusion of the world, because why are they necessary? And there are certainly recyclings from fantasy traditions, although I'd argue that it's not "rip-offs of WoT" but just genre conventions. I'd further argue that I think Martin alters them in fairly significant ways, as if to comment on the genre a bit (it's not genius, but different enough).

His propensity to kill off characters - which you count as a vice - I consider something of a virtue. It eliminates the convention where the "important characters" never die until the most dramatic moments. Martin's world is more cruel and cutthroat, and everyone is vulnerable (although in the fourth book, he certainly seems to be saving those deaths as more center-piece moments, which I don't particularly enjoy).

I also think that the limited use of magic, at least through the first four books, is a definite virtue, and wholly unlike the WoT series. Ice and Fire is practically a feudal Europe fiction, and the Starks and Lannisters are like fantasy stand-ins for the Yorks and Lancaster's of England's War of the Roses (they even have the same roses, for goodness' sakes).

However, this is way too much analysis for a relatively straightforward series. Like all fantasy, I think that you either enjoy it or you don't, it's not really meant to be a deep read like some fiction. It's just about pure pleasure.

[Hunter]

I don't remember the role the Seanchan had in book two of WoT, remind me?

I guess if 7-9 of the series are ok and 10 sucks, but 11's good and it will end at 12, I'll save the rest of the series for a time when I have a drought of books. Right now I just finished Kings of New York by Michael Weinreb and Postcards from Europe by travel writer Rick Steves, both of which were relatively light and very enjoyable non-fiction reads. And Harry Potter 7 looms ever closer.

I'll agree with you on some of the Ice and Fire criticisms. The graphic sexual descriptions completely took me out of the illusion of the world, because why are they necessary? And there are certainly recyclings from fantasy traditions, although I'd argue that it's not "rip-offs of WoT" but just genre conventions. I'd further argue that I think Martin alters them in fairly significant ways, as if to comment on the genre a bit (it's not genius, but different enough).

His propensity to kill off characters - which you count as a vice - I consider something of a virtue. It eliminates the convention where the "important characters" never die until the most dramatic moments. Martin's world is more cruel and cutthroat, and everyone is vulnerable (although in the fourth book, he certainly seems to be saving those deaths as more center-piece moments, which I don't particularly enjoy).

I also think that the limited use of magic, at least through the first four books, is a definite virtue, and wholly unlike the WoT series. Ice and Fire is practically a feudal Europe fiction, and the Starks and Lannisters are like fantasy stand-ins for the Yorks and Lancaster's of England's War of the Roses (they even have the same roses, for goodness' sakes).

However, this is way too much analysis for a relatively straightforward series. Like all fantasy, I think that you either enjoy it or you don't, it's not really meant to be a deep read like some fiction. It's just about pure pleasure.





I used spoiler tags. See here:

http://got-next.com/board/showthread.php?t=118025



So. The Seanchan, let's see. They took over Toman Head. Captured Egwene and Min, and almost Nyneave and Elayne. Fain went to work for them, took them the Horn of Valere. They also captured Bayle Domon. They then slaughtered a legion of whitecloaks, including Geofram Bornhald. Rand, Mat, Perrin and Hurin then lead the heroes returned from the dead by the horn of Valere to drive them back into the ocean. I think that's the gist of it.


As for Martin, some is just generic some is WoT ripoff. I mean, the wolves and the wolf dreams? Come on.


As for the killing. I don't mind it, what I do mind, is getting three books of backstory on a character who then trips and dies walking down the street. I exaggerate I know, but wtf? I mean, people ask, make it more real, why can't people just die like in real life. Thats what Martin is thinking. But the reason no one tells those stories is simple, because they suck. No one wants to hear the story of the Kid who became a king and almost unified the kingdom, but then got ass-raped by the bad guys. Thats simply not a story worth telling.

If you need to kill some guys to shock and awe here and there, fine. But there's no need to kill EVERYONE who isn't Arya, Bran or John. And its not like its a shock. Arya, John and Bran won't die, THEY are the main characters. I know that, so it doesn't shock when you kill side character number 3,259 after seven chapters of story for him, it annoys me. :|



As for the lack of magic, I don't mind it at all, and I love the setting. They are great books, with some annoying flaws.

[Celebrant]

I have no idea if the spoiler tags worked.

I guess my thinking with those WoT book 2 bad guys was that they were a separate deal from the group that came in later and completely obliterated the story arc that was going on in the main contenent (the one where he's reuniting the clans and all that, getting ready for a final showdown). I guess I saw the first group coming, but not the later, bigger group, so it caught me unawares. Clearly I was wrong.

Clearly we disagree about Martin - the stories you said "suck" and "aren't worth telling" I thought were very interesting and engaging. For me Martin's plots aren't just about what happens but about how it happens, the politics and betrayals and skullduggery. That they are unresolved because of a death doesn't bother me. So I still really enjoyed the ones that "didn't go anywhere," as it were.

The initial conceit of the series - a world in which summers last years and then winters last even longer, and they just had the longest summer ever - was a really good one, and I wish Martin would actually do more with that. In the latest books that is completely secondary to the standard political stuff.

[Hunter]

I have no idea if the spoiler tags worked.

I guess my thinking with those WoT book 2 bad guys was that they were a separate deal from the group that came in later and completely obliterated the story arc that was going on in the main contenent (the one where he's reuniting the clans and all that, getting ready for a final showdown). I guess I saw the first group coming, but not the later, bigger group, so it caught me unawares. Clearly I was wrong.

Clearly we disagree about Martin - the stories you said "suck" and "aren't worth telling" I thought were very interesting and engaging. For me Martin's plots aren't just about what happens but about how it happens, the politics and betrayals and skullduggery. That they are unresolved because of a death doesn't bother me. So I still really enjoyed the ones that "didn't go anywhere," as it were.

The initial conceit of the series - a world in which summers last years and then winters last even longer, and they just had the longest summer ever - was a really good one, and I wish Martin would actually do more with that. In the latest books that is completely secondary to the standard political stuff.





The guys in the first book were the Hailene those who come before, to prepare the lands for conquest. Those who come in the later books are the Corenne the Return. Settlers and whatnot. Knowledge of the Old Tongue FTW!! :p I'm such a geek.


As for Martin, it's not that i don't like the stories while they last, but they are dead ends. To pick a relevant analogy, it's like if MC had died at the end of Halo 2.

[DarthArcturus]

aaaaaaaaaaaaah so much black :p

[Celebrant]

(I don't think this has spoilers, don't worry).


I will bow to your superior knowledge about all things Wheel of Time haha. You're like a walking wiki of lore.

Well-said about the Halo analogy; I might have said it's like Metal Gear Solid 2, where it turns out the main character you were following since MGS1 disappears and you're instead put on to a totally different story arc (much to the ire of most fans).

[Hunter]

Go read the WoT darth!! I COMMAND IT!!